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Welcome to EASY MONEY. I’m Jill the Money Coach. I know what it’s like to push through to white knuckle it to put in the time and get no results. I know what it’s like to wonder what’s the right way, and to constantly worry about doing it all wrong. I’ve learned a whole lot from doing things the hard way. That’s why I help coaches go from doing everything the hard way to making money easy. You want to create your dream life and dream business. That’s all about being free to do what you want, spend what you want, and build the future you want. And do it all with ease. In this podcast, I bring you Simple Strategies for Success for your business that make money easy. So it’s time for EASY MONEY. Are you ready? Well, then let’s go. 

Hey, hey, welcome back to EASY MONEY.  I’m Jill Wright, and I am so glad you’re here. And you’re gonna be so glad you’re here. Because today, I have got another special guest. As I continue my conversations with coaches. This has been an amazing summer, I have so enjoyed all of these conversations. And today’s conversation is no exception. I could have coached so many people around their limitations, helping them see their limitations, helping them challenge and question their limitations, and helping them, you know, find solutions for those challenges for those limitations, some of which are mindset. And so I’m really excited about this conversation that you’re gonna get to listen in on today. It’s with Christina Kwan. Now Christina is a life coach and a former suicidal depressive who helps people get rid of their depression, she figured out the formula for erasing depression from her life for ever. After saying goodbye to her corporate career in 2019, she began a lifelong commitment to helping the world’s people live long, fulfilling lives, she helps high functioning depressives overcome their insecurities, love themselves truly, and completely, and ditch depression. So you can find Christina on Instagram @theroaduncovered. Or you can visit her website, the road uncovered.com.  So I just don’t even need to tell you what to listen to, or what to listen for. Because I guarantee there are going to be some golden nuggets in this conversation that you’re not going to want to miss. So just pay attention throughout the whole thing. And enjoy our conversation. So glad to have you here. Christina, it has been such a pleasure just watching your journey and seeing how far you’ve come in your business and in your, just the emotional journey that you’ve been on. And so I’m so excited to get to share your journey with my audience and in whatever way that will help them overcome whatever they’re struggling with, because depression is this huge topic and and also a topic that people don’t necessarily like talking about. I mean, it’s kind of like money. People don’t like talking about money either. So I think this is a perfect match to bring to our audiences.

Yes, absolutely. I definitely feel you there nobody. Those are the two things nobody likes talking about depression. And definitely people don’t like talking about money. So there are themes in terms of how we deal with both and how we interact with people knowing that those are sort of the, you know, unspoken ground rules.

Yeah. So how do you deal with sort of the on written rule that people don’t talk about depression? Well, I guess the way that I deal with the unwritten, unwritten rule about no talking about depression is that I ignore it.

I love it. That’s kind of how I do it. With the people don’t talk about money.

Yeah, and I think in order to really help people with these unspoken rules that we, you know, have as a society, you know, that it is actually important to step outside of that expectation and to speak about things in a way that obviously doesn’t. I wouldn’t say doesn’t offend I offend plenty of people when I talk about depression. But, but in a way that’s true to you, and that it serves the purpose of helping people understand maybe a different perspective about something that can be really tough to deal with, whether it is money, what or, or depression.

Yeah, yeah. And I think in order to help people, we sometimes have to disrupt, disrupt the rules that we’ve been conditioned with, in order to give people permission to step into whatever healing they need, and it’s give them permission to express themselves, and whatever they need, in whatever ways they need, in order to start that healing process in order to claim victory over whatever it is that they’re struggling with. And it could be depression, it could be money, it could be any number of things that we have been oppressed by.

Yeah, and I think in terms of being able to talk to people about things that they’re not accustomed to talking about, it is important to just even be the person that takes the first step forward. So, for example, you know, depression is a thing, especially if you have it or you suspect that you have it is definitely not something that you’re going to share even. I mean, you might have some people who make jokes about it, like, Oh, I’m so depressed, hahaha, as a way to sort of, you know, release some of that tension. But it’s one of, it’s one of those things that you’re just constantly thinking about, even if the conversations externally don’t involve that topic at all. And it, it has the, I feel anyway, it has the tendency to kind of permeate every single conversation that you’ve gone, if especially if depression is something that like, depending on how deep, how deeply you are affected, it’s probably something that you’re thinking about all the time, it’s part of your experience. And so as a result, it’s going to be a part of the conversations that you’re having, or not just in the interactions in your daily life. And so, it’s important, at least from my perspective, as somebody who, you know, experienced clinical depression for a very long time, experienced suicidality made three attempts, that kind of thing, and now have lived a life where I don’t have depression, I’m not suicidal, very far from it. I really love and enjoy my life. And I, you know, I genuinely feel blessed to be able to experience this part of my life after having had the experience that I’ve had with depression. I think for me, it’s really important to share that my perspective and to talk about it and to be unapologetic about how I talk about it, because there’s a world of people out there who have never heard the perspective of other survivors. So I remember one of the things that I thought about all the time, when I was really deep in it, I was suicidal, I thought about death all the time. One of the things that I wished and prayed for was just somebody, some one person in the entire world who has gone through this level of pain, and has lived to see the day where they wake up and they actually are okay with being alive. I would like to hear from that person. And I was really hoping, you know, every day like some, you know, that this person would arrive in my life. That never really happens. I didn’t meet anyone who could relate to my circumstance. And part of that is because with depression, you’re not really going to be talking to anyone else about it. But that’s the reason why. Yes, there is an unspoken rule like we don’t we don’t prod we don’t pry. We don’t ask, you know, deep enough questions to really understand what’s going on with people’s personal experience. But because I’ve had this specific life, I feel that it’s really important for me to talk about it and to talk about it a lot.

Yeah, I want to go back for just a second, to something you said a few minutes ago, that you were, you’re, you are constantly thinking about it. And I really would love for you to describe that experience. Or tell me more about that, tell me more about what that might look like. Because I did want to talk about some of the limits that that can have that can put on your experience of life, on your life, on your circumstances, on the results that you’re able to create in your life from that place. One to help anybody understand and in for them to hear what you just talked about to know that there’s somebody out there who has experienced this and has come out on the other side, to to help people understand who might have somebody in their life, who is experiencing this, to just build a little bit more awareness with people about what this looks like, what people who have this experience are experiencing, just for whatever they can offer, whether it’s energy or support, or just compassion, or just understanding. I think this world could definitely use a whole lot more understanding with respect to a lot of things. But I think, I think that would help a lot of people who might be listening to this.

Yeah, absolutely. And so what’s going through my mind is like, Okay, so where do I start?  Whatever comes to mind first.

Yeah, and, I mean, what comes to mind first is, you know, my, my particular manifestation, let’s say, of, of, you know, depression, and suicidality was that I was what’s called a high functioning depressive. So I was able to go to work, I would work out actually, I had a very rigorous workout schedule at some point, in my, in this journey. And I hung out with friends, I had a social life, like everything externally looked fine. And, but inside, I was deeply miserable, and thinking about death, literally every moment of my life. And that’s quite different. I think, from what we’re what we traditionally think about in terms of people who are depressed, we think about the people who lock themselves up in their room or their apartment, it’s dark, they sleep a lot, their house is a mess, because they can’t get themselves to, you know, take care of themselves, or to shower, clean their apartment, or whatever. And that wasn’t the case for me. And so I know, in the beginning, I didn’t know I didn’t have an understanding of what I was going through. Because when I thought of depression, that’s what I thought of. And the truth is that it has, it has less to do with what it looks like on the outside and has everything to do with how it feels on the inside. And so in terms of like people who might have someone in their lives might suspect even that they’ve got someone in their lives that feeling this way, it can be really difficult to know for sure, without asking the direct question. So and when I think about how can people help and how can people support, you know, a lot of the the established, let’s say, advice out there is to is for people who are experiencing suicide to reach out and then hopefully the people who they reach out to will support them and listen to them. But the part that’s difficult though, is that if you haven’t experienced a level of suicidality or just thinking about suicide to the point of really contemplating execution, it can be really hard to understand how a person can get there. And so a lot of the advice and things that we might say as someone who is who has not experienced depression to that degree or or even, you know, contemplated suicide, a lot of the things excuse me a lot of the things that We might say, that are very aspirational inspirational for, for, quote unquote normal people, you know, non depressive would be something perfectly great to say. But what’s, what’s difficult for someone who’s experiencing this is that the idea of being able to feel neutral seems like a very far off impossible thing. And so when I think about, for example, in my business, not being depressed, you know, the one impossible thing, when I first started out was like, how am I going to? How am I going to convince this first person to pay me for my coaching services, that’s just not going to happen at all. And, and it’s, and what I like to think about or what I would love for people to understand about people with depression is that it’s exactly the same thing, except to a far far, far deeper degree of resistance to what could be possible. And when we’re, when we’re thinking about like, life, that it can feel impossible for a person with, with clinical with deep depression with, you know, suicide ideation to contemplate that life could just be okay, that is the impossible thing. And so for certain people to try to support with words that you would normally say to somebody who’s just having a down day, actually can be really disheartening to someone who is experiencing that kind of triggering even.

Yeah, like, it’s, I mean, to be honest, like, if you’re, if you’re experiencing suicide, like or just thinking about suicide, if you’re so depressed to, to that degree, that everything is probably triggering, okay. But it’s more so like. So one of the hallmarks of depression is that it’s very isolating, right? People who experience it feel like they are the one unique, broken person in the whole world. And logically, they might understand that plenty of people are depressed, but because they’re operating in their own kind of home environment, when they are conversing with people in their lives, who don’t seem to understand where they’re coming from, why they can’t, you know, just not think about it and move on. That even further isolates them to the facts, or makes it feel like they’re the only ones that are experiencing this. And so, it can be difficult, especially when you love a person who’s feeling depressed, to witness them doing that, because from the outside looking in, and sidenote, I’ve had this experience as someone who doesn’t have depression anymore, like I had depression, I know what it what it was like, and I don’t have that experience anymore, when I’m interacting with someone who times who, who was really, really, really deep in it, I have the same reaction like that. What do you mean, just stop thinking about that? Right? Yeah. So it can be a tough situation to navigate. I, but the one thing I do want to say is if you have someone in your life who’s experiencing this, and you want to support them, and you don’t know how, there are two things that you can do. One is definitely to ask them straight out, like, especially if they like you just ask them like, how are you doing? And then they seem to, you know, have an extreme emotional reaction that doesn’t quite warrant like you’re just asking how they are and they just start crying. It is very helpful to ask the question, Are you suicidal? Are you thinking about harming yourself? You know, and I think we’re, as people we’re, especially if the connection is not very strong. We think that it’s not polite. And it might not be but asking the question is, is actually the thing that can save a life? And so what I want to offer is that that’s the number one thing if you have a suspicion that this person is you know about to harm themselves is thinking about that. Ask the direct question and do your best right to emotionally regulate depending on how triggering it is for you to ask about this. Because drawing attention to it is the thing that makes the person feel less alone. 

Because they’re able to confess basically that this is a deep desire that they’re having a thing which they, you know, they know is, quote unquote, wrong. And having you ask is, is a really big deal when they’re growing through it. And then the second thing I would say is to help them find support. So I think what ends up happening is, if you ask the question of someone who’s feeling depressed and suicidal, and they realize you’re a safe person to talk to about that, their tendency is going to be to latch on to you as their sort of release. And it’s a huge, huge emotional burden to try to be the sounding board for somebody who’s feeling depressed and suicidal. And so it’s going to be really important for them to have the appropriate support. If that means helping them to find a therapist, and it might, it might literally mean going on, you know, psychology today.com, you know, searching for a therapist in your area and giving them a few phone numbers, or making the phone call for them, depending on how, how deeply they’re experiencing their depression, and also spreading the wealth. So I’ve been thinking a lot about this, this concept, right? Like, when you’re feeling depressed and suicidal, your tendency is to want to concentrate all of your release to one person. Because if you can minimize the amount, the number of people who know you’re going through this, then maybe you have a chance of living a normal life after you get through this. But it’s ironic, because the way to get through it is for you to have more and more support, robust support. And so what I would say, as I guess, part B of Step number two, is to help this person that you care about, get more, more common support. So you’re not the only person that they’re calling when they’re feeling terrible about themselves. Like, if they’re friends, you can introduce them to if you can all be together and talk about, you know, this very tough time, or even the details of what’s going on, to spread the wealth, because that’s what’s ultimately going to help this person knowing that there are multiple people who actually care that they’re around and that and, and that their concerns are valid.

Yeah, okay. That’s great information, really appreciate. And I’ll put, I’ll put that link to Psychology Today, in the, in the show notes for people in case they need it. Yeah, and it’s interesting as you were describing this, and I certainly don’t want to minimize, you know, the, the experience that you’re describing, sounds much more intense and oppressive as the word that comes to me, then what I’ve experienced, but sort of I saw sort of a parallel that I have experienced when I was, you know, what, as I’ve been building my business, is a lot of times I felt isolated, I felt like, oh, my gosh, nobody understands what I’m going through. And I have felt very alone at times, that, who can I even talk to about this? Especially, because, like, a lot of my clients are coaches. And so obviously, you know, like, they’re all could be my ideal client, certainly, I don’t want to talk to them about the what I’m struggling with. And so I can see how that can sort of just perpetuate. And I’ve experienced how that can perpetuate that isolation. So finding anybody that that is an understands what you’re going through or is willing to understand and wants to understand and wants to be a safe place. How that can be almost critical for people that might be experiencing this. Yeah,

I mean, I would say that whether the advice holes actually if you’re, if you’re experiencing depression, or you’re trying to build your business, right like that, the more people you’ve got in your corner, the left isolating it will feel more people you can speak to candidly about what you’re going through, then the more able you are going to be to access the part of you that has the resources and the solutions. But it’s like, in my mind, it’s the first thing that needs to happen is that you know, you, you have to lift that burden off of your own chest. And that is best done, in my opinion with people who you feel comfortable sharing those details with. And being very candid, and honest and open with. Yeah, for sure. Very many parallel.

Yeah, it was interesting what you said earlier that you didn’t really find somebody who had gone through that, and came out on the other side. And so what it sounds like to me is that you became that person for yourself. And that you, I don’t know, you can maybe speak to that, but that you became that person for other people out there. I think that’s, you know, so beautiful. And has got to be. So I don’t even know what the right word is to be able to be that for somebody else is, just feels like it would be so powerful and such. So compelling. A why? You know, I think about Corinne Crabtree, that’s kind of, you know, she’s so passionate about what she does, you know, for much the same reason is that she wants to be that person for other people, and I think a lot of coaches find that as well. I mean, I’ve had clients that said, you know, I couldn’t find the resources that I wanted. And so that’s why it’s so important for me to do this work. But yeah, you can talk about like, how did you get there? Did you become that person for yourself? Or did you become your own resource?

Yes, I apologize. I was making that face because I’m like, I’m refilling my water. And I’m like, oh, no, I’m, like, show up on the audio. That’s why. Because yes, I do, I do definitely believe that I, I became the person that, ultimately is the resource for other people who are experiencing this level of depression. Because I didn’t find that the person I was hoping and wishing and praying for the person that had the wisdom, who could show me the, you know, life the way forward, tell me what exactly I needed to do in order to help my self not hate myself so much. And ultimately, yes, I did, I did become that person. And that was out of necessity, right? Like I didn’t, there wasn’t someone, for example, who was, you know, on social media every day talking about, you know, his or her experience with, with clinical depression, or feeling suicidal, or what they did or what that experience was even like, like, I think a lot of my work in the world is really just normalizing what that’s like for people because we, you know, there is this whole stigma around mental health, it’s getting much better. Like, I’m thinking about 10 years ago, I definitely would not have seen anything in media or on the news or anything about mental health. So I think we’re definitely going in the right direction. But that’s part of the reason why you’re right. Like, for me, it’s it’s a huge why a big reason why, you know, I’ll show up on during, you know, any day, any given day, just to talk about my experience, or what I’m working through with my clients, things that I’ve thought about that potentially could help. Because what I went through, a lot of people are going through right now and what we’re not hearing, we’re not hearing from the the everyday people who have experienced this who have turned it around and found a way out, we hear a lot from celebrities, people with a lot of money, people with a lot of resources, who, you know, went to rehab and somehow are not depressed anymore, you know, magical Well, if I had millions of dollars, and you know, was very famous, then maybe I could do that. You know, and, and so I think it’s a really important thing for me to, like I said, just to normalize the experience for people.

Yeah. That’s so good. Could you, would you be willing to talk about, like part of that, about that journey of becoming that person? Can you kind of walk us through maybe the highlight reel of what that really looked like and, and how you, I guess Yeah, I mean, we’re all looking For the hell right, ultimately. But just to give people a sense of yes, this is possible, and whatever it is, that is your version of what is keeping you from that life you enjoy and that you appreciate, and that, you know, sort of sounds like, you know, you had that life before when you had depression, or at least it looked like it even though the insides didn’t match the outsides. And so what you’re talking about is, yeah, now your insides match your outside. So maybe your outsides don’t look that much different. But how do you what was? How did you bridge that gap? You know, because this can happen in so many different areas of our lives. It can happen in relationships, it can happen in finances, it can happen in our career, or in business, in really any area of our life, where we have this huge limit that we want to remove to make possible what it is that we want to believe as possible, but currently feels impossible.

Yes, I think it’s such a great question. And I’ll try to tackle it in two different ways. So one, there’s what I did, right, what ended up happening for me, and then there’s the, the, what I actually helped my clients do, because my journey was a lot of trial and error, it was definitely not the fastest way. So the highlight reel, I guess, of my of my full recovery was that I took suicide off the table. And so this, this was a very pivotal decision that I didn’t realize was a decision at the time, like a couple of very many serendipitous things happened for me to come to this conclusion that it would be that I didn’t want to be the kind of person that took my own life and therefore would transfer the severe amount of pain I was in every single day to the people that I loved. It was the absolute, like, what is that word? No deal. Like, no more I suicide was off the table, I’m not doing that that’s not the person I want to be. That’s not the kind of decision I want to make for the people that I love. And impact them in that way, and right or wrong. Because I also believe in this time, now it’s more so like, if you’re going to make a decision, it ought to be for you. But that’s what got me there. Right. Like, I’m not going to do this and, and, and relieve myself of my own pain, because of what I thought it could do to members of my family. And which I think is really just in terms of what you were saying before the limits, like how do you work through the limits? It’s brilliant in terms of if you’re going to take this, this notion and apply it to your business. Because basically what happened was, this solution that I had had in my mind about my depression was always pinging me of like, okay, there’s only one way that I’m going to get through this. And that’s just to die. And the minute I decided that that was just not going to be the solution anymore. It meant that I had to find a different solution. And at that time, the different solution was, well, I guess I’m just going to be miserable for the rest of my life. I’m going to live another 50 years. And it’s going to be horrific, because this is how I feel every single day. But this is the decision that I’m going to make. And so it what that did was, you know, and I think about this in terms, if we’re going to take this into business terms, like we have this. There’s always some kind of story that we’ve got right like that, it’s not going to work out. If I do this, even if I do, even if I do this, it’s not going to work out, you know, whatever that. However the story ends to you is probably the thing that you’ve been focusing on a lot. And this has served me so well. When you eliminate the option where you fail in that particular way. Right. Then you’re forced to say because the only way you fail is when you quit right.

Precisely. Yes, exactly. And so when you eliminate the option where are, you know, it all goes, it all goes to hell. That’s when you’re, you’re able to support your brain and thinking about all the other options that are available to you. And it could just be like it was for me in my depression that, okay, I’m not going to, to take my own life. I guess the only choice is to be miserable for the rest of it. And then what happened was, as I allowed myself to contemplate that that was the answer, and lived that answer. What actually ended up happening was, I started to think like, Well, okay, so if I’m going to be here for another 50 years, and it’s going to be as miserable as it has been, then I don’t Okay, maybe I ought to see what the hell what do I have to lose? Let’s see if I can make this even just a little bit better. And that’s kind of what got me on to the, like, I had been a closet self help kind of person, all throughout my depression, because I had felt like I was, you know, it was kind of part of the story, I was telling myself that I shouldn’t have to look for answers anywhere else, I shouldn’t need to know how to feel better about myself, I should just be able to do that on my own somehow. So it was, it’s funny, just a quick side story, I would go into Barnes and Noble. It’s my favorite activity to this day, they go into the bookstore, but it was a lot more shy about it. And they would have the self health sections, like very broadly advertised. But I would like walk in there into the section as if I was walking into like, the X rated section of the of like Blockbuster. Like, I hope, I hope I don’t run into anybody over here, right? Like, because there was a sense in me that I couldn’t, it was wrong of me to have this problem. And it was wrong of me to try to look for solutions, like at the bookstore, you know, like this, and normal people know what to do about something like Exactly, yeah.

Yes. And so I think that’s what has been super helpful, not only for supporting my clients, like, but also for thinking about when you’re just trying to think of solutions in terms of your growth for your business. Right. Like, and there has to be, you know, I spent a good 10 to 15 years contemplating ending my life. And so it’s not like a, it wasn’t like, Okay, I’m just gonna decide, I think we want a light switch.

Yeah, exactly. And, and I, I think there, there has to be some room for allowing yourself to feel like there is no solution, before you get to the place where, okay, I’m done with not, I’m done with thinking that there is no solution. Right. But the way that I actually ended up helping my clients with this is that we don’t start there, right. That’s how my story ended up, I decided that suicide was off the table, and then that’s when that led me to, okay, let me figure out if I could make life a little bit better. It’s really, really difficult to make the decision to, like, right off the bat, that suicide is off the table, because it’s so appealing. It’s so not necessarily that it’s easy, but that it could solve everything is and for my clients, they’ve been feeling that way for a very long time. So we don’t actually start there. We start by looking at what’s actually happening in life right now. And getting acclimated to feeling okay with that, yes, right now, I feel like it’s the worst. But my mind could change about that. And, and I would say the first four weeks is really about that if a if a client starts with me, you know, brand new. It’s all about seeing how the life that we’re living right now is actually a is actually working out really well, despite our complaints about it. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

So it’s almost like is it possible that I could be okay with how I am? Yeah, so is, yeah, as you were talking about, like those steps that you went through are those stages, I guess that would be a better way to put it. It’s not necessarily a step. It’s more like a stage. It’s a process that you go through. What I heard is like, stage one was, you know, is this really the person, I want to be the person that causes this much pain that I’m in for my family in order to solve this problem that I have, once you took that off the table, then you stepped into sort of an acceptance. This is my story. And I accept that. Now, we can go into as coaches like, but that story is not true and all of that, but that really is irrelevant at that point. And so I’ve really want people to hear that is it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s true, you have to start to live in that acceptance, I think. And so living in that acceptance opened up your mind to the possibility of tiny improvements. Like because what do you have to lose? Right, and I think you talked about that. So now what you’re talking about, is you see, sort of a more effective way, this is all this was, you were just trying things and you were just following sort of your intuition and, you know, doing the best you can, like, we’re always all doing the best we can. So if you can get them to, is it possible? That I could just be okay. With not being okay, if that’s what I believe about myself?

Yeah, I mean, I think a big benefit, I think, from coaching with me, if you have depression is, is the fact that you’ll get a lot of validation of your experience. Because, you know, like I said, I said to I’ve said in the past that, you know, contemplating and actually, like following through and executing on a suicide attempt is like a very unique human experience. And I described it this way, it’s like trying to talk. It’s, it’s like trying to describe colors to someone who’s never been, who’s never seen colors before, who’s been colorblind their entire life. That’s what the experience of attempting, truly wanting to be successful in it is like, and so when you are coaching with me, and you have that, like you are experiencing that now and I have had that experience, you’re, you’re not just talking to someone who kind of knows intellectually, what you’re going through, I’ve actually lived it. And so a big part of why it’s beneficial for my clients to work with me specifically is because it’s not just I can describe it from like something I’ve read in a textbook, I can literally tell them exactly what it’s like without. Yeah, I can literally tell them what exactly what it’s like. And so a big part of it, versus the validation around the experience, because if you’re surrounded by people who have never felt this way, and you’re talking about it, and everyone’s like, Nope, I don’t know what you’re talking about. It just It reinforces that you are the only one. Yeah, and then it is about, you know, accepting that you are where you are, because that’s the very first part to change. Like, I think that’s what they say in a, you know, first, the first step is acknowledging that there’s even a problem. And acknowledging yourself for where you are and what you’re experiencing without resisting it without having it too, without needing it to change. It’s just okay, where you are, then that’s when we create the space for, for growth and for transformation. But that process, I think, is really can be really difficult to do on your own. Like for anyone, whether you’re experiencing depression, or you’re just trying to go for an ambitious goal, like you’re trying to go somewhere you’ve never been before, and your brain is automatically telling you, it’s safer to just stay where you are. And even though you know that to feel, you know, complete self hatred for yourself is ultimately going to end up you heard in yourself, the idea of potentially living a life where you don’t, where you wake up and you’re like, Okay, I’m just gonna brush my teeth, and there’s no drama about it. Like for someone who’s experiencing depression to that, to that degree, that is the, you know, that’s the dream. And that dream feels impossible. And so it is so important when we’re trying to reach for anything, is to have a lot of grace, for where we are in the moment, before we even contemplate how we might change it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And one thing that I have noticed about you is even though maybe In the beginning stages of this, when you were kind of afraid to put yourself out there and say, I’m in the health, Self Help section. I guess, you know, at the point that we became acquainted with each other, you were very, I guess you had grown to a point where you were like how Yes, I’m, I’m going to invest in myself, because, you know, now I see what’s possible. And this, these investments that I’m making, whether it’s time, or whether it’s money, or whether it’s just pure, I mean, I remember, you know, kind of some of our discussions, and how deeply uncomfortable what you got to, and just that willingness to do that work, and to step into that, that’s such intense discomfort, on purpose was an investment in yourself. And so I see, like, all of the investments you’ve made in yourself, um, where, where did that come from?

Yeah, actually, so the way that I think about this is, well, first of all, I feel like, you know, to get to give your listeners context, when you when you and I got together, you know, I had just had this idea of like, Maybe I ought to be a depression coach, but the thought of it, the mere thought of it scares the living daylights out of me, you know, like, I was like, who am I? And nobody does this. Nobody talks about this. Nobody coaches on this even, you know, and I had, I was extremely sensitive about stepping forward into the world as this person. Right. And, and so it is really interesting to talk to you from this vantage point, because now I’m like, you know, I’m on podcasts, and I’m on Instagram, like, every day talking about this experience. And it’s, it’s uncanny. Well, so what comes to mind when you asked me that is, you know, what, what got me to the point where I was willing to invest in myself is, you know, I had done all of this work to get to the point where I could say, I was severely depressed, and I’m not depressed anymore. And it was a slog, you know, like, I mean, what you said earlier was like, Okay, maybe I’ll make these incremental changes. But no, it wasn’t like that jail when I decided. When I decided, you know, okay, fine, I’ll be here for the next 50 years or whatever, I don’t want to be this miserable, why don’t I give it a shot to see if I could make it just even a little bit better? It might have started out a little bit slow, but then it really quickly gained pace, because I was like, I really don’t have anything to lose. So why don’t I read all of the books, I’m gonna probably go into self help and pick up whatever I want. That feels like, you know, it might answer the questions that I have. And you know, by the time I met with you, there was a huge trajectory around, you know, literally writing every single day journaling, answering my own question, self coaching lots and lots of hyper activity around my own personal growth. And the way that I think about it is, you know, I’m, I’m an amateur gardener. And I’m smart enough to use, like, certain power tools to like build a raised bed, you know, like, how hard is it to put a couple of posts together with some nails, not very hard, right. But the fact is that I would have to invest in all of those tools, I would have to, you know, I don’t know everything there is to know about all the types of lumber there is out there, what you know, what size all, et cetera, et cetera. And there comes a point where, you know, you’re smart enough and resourceful enough to do everything by herself if you wanted to, but then you don’t you spend all of your time doing that part, as opposed to like, getting the support that you need to do the part that you actually enjoy, which is, after you’ve experienced the growth of like, who you would like to be after you’ve worked with a coach, then you get to enjoy that part of your life. So the way that I think about it is like, Okay, you just buy one that you can simply put together, right? It doesn’t take much time at all. And then you get to the part where that you actually enjoy which is the gardening which is the actual watching plants grow, right, which is actually harvesting the fruit or whatever, of whatever you planted. So Oh, that’s the way that I think about that in terms of like, what, what actually got me into a, like a mindset where I was ready to invest, and I’ve invested a lot since then, you know, we’ve worked, we worked together for quite a quite a while. And, it was just because there is really no replacement for having that sounding board, that person who is automatic, it’s built in, you know, you’re all you’re on my side, you want my ultimate success. There’s no scenario where it’s to your benefit to see me fail. Right. And also, that it’s the kind of relationship where you understand that failure is also important and vital to success. So yeah, I’ll get out there. Yeah, I love that analogy, though. Yeah, because, you know, as entrepreneurs, we can spend time or we can spend money. And, you know, sometimes we have to spend the time, because we have a journey to go on. And sometimes it’s better to spend the money so that you can spend the time more wisely. And so understanding sort of where you are, in whatever journey you’re on, is important to be able to make the decision that’s best for you. Whether you need to go through that journey, right? Because you could have decided, yes, I, I need to go through this journey of learning how to build this, because I think that journey is an investment in whatever it is that you your objective was, or, you know, I would rather invest my money and buy this, because there are other things that I want to do with my time. And that’s not really, the journey of learning how to build this race bed is not the journey that I want to be on right now. So there are those decisions that you have to kind of, I mean, those are personal decisions, right, because for some, for one person, their journey might be to learn how to build a raised bed in order to to enjoy. They might have to go through that entire process, it might be the journey that they need to be on, but for other people, not so much. That’s not the journey that they’re meant for. Right? Yeah, I definitely think there’s, there’s something to be said for, for purposefully, you know, not seeking out help or, or, let’s say, direct resources, you know, if we’re really talking about the, like, take this analogy to its full extent, you know, it, I can, I can definitely see where in certain aspects of your business, that it would make sense for you to DIY for you to take the time to try to learn certain skills. And I think it is, it’s really important for you, as a business owner to think about what those things are. Because, you know, and this is the way that I feel about skills in general, like there’s never any law to doing that, like, you know, even if you do have to spend a lot of time and you don’t ever reach any kind of proficiency, that is, you know, you wouldn’t be able to sell those particular skills, but they serve you in some way. I think that makes a lot of sense for me personally, and you didn’t exactly ask me this, but I want to offer my opinion, my unsolicited opinion about this. That you know, when it comes to when it comes to your own personal growth, when it comes to you becoming the person that creates the outcome that you would like to see in your life, that, you know, I think especially you know, as your audience is full of coaches, we might, you know, in the two of us being coaches, we might have this sense of like, I should be able to do this I should be able to, you know, grow and, and progress and, and level up my mindset on my own because this is what I do for a living. That the process of getting coached and being in that type of relationship is something that actually supports you and your career because what we know at least about the human brain is that you He ingrained in us to like, it’s part of our DNA to think of the worst case scenario. So there’s never going to be a time when not using it when having health is going to be a detriment to your skill building.

Yeah, so I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don’t think that, as human beings in general, and especially as entrepreneurs, you know, and your clients do, we can’t, there’s no such thing as too much support. Right? I don’t think not that you should go out and fill up your calendar with, you know, programming program and program and course, and, of course, after course, but, you know, there’s, there’s obviously a spectrum of, you know, not enough to too much, right. And so you have to choose where you are on that spectrum. And it’s, it’s going to depend on where you are in your journey, it’s going to depend on what your objectives are in this part of your journey, because that’s, like, constantly changing. So yeah, I would definitely agree with there’s generally speaking, no such thing as too much support. And I think that goes back to what you were talking about earlier. When you accept where you are, then you can step into that place of, you know, what can I do? And, and sort of, you know, there’s, there’s really nothing at stake at some point, right? And then, and then stepping into that from more of a desire or I want this for myself, versus I need this for myself, I think it at some point, you make that shift from need or survival to want or, you know, what else is possible for me? So I think that’s a good way to kind of start to wrap up our discussion on all of this is, you know, shifting into that space. So, I don’t know what you have to add on that. I had a thought, but I just lost it. So well, if it comes back, you know, we can circle back to it. Is there anything that you want to share with people, anything else that we haven’t talked about that you feel is important for people to know, whether it’s coaches, whether it’s people that are listening to this that suffer from depression, whether it’s somebody who has a friend that suffering depression, with anybody who might be listening? What else do you feel like they need to know? Or what else do you have going on right now that you want them to know about? What you offer?

Yeah, I mean, the first thing really, that comes to mind is and this is really a message for, for everyone. Whether you are experiencing depression now or not. You know, we live in a world that has taught us that to be successful, we have to be everything that we’re not. We’ve got to, you know, be bigger, be better, be more improved or whatever. And I, I’ve come to the point in my life, where I realized that the secret is to radically accept everything that you are right now in this moment. So whether that’s you are really having a hard time existing, you don’t know what the reason is for living, or you’re just really frustrated because you’re trying to make your business work and you’ve been at it for a while or you’ve been at it for not very long and it just feels like a really hard struggle. I really, truly believe that. The way forward is much easier, much more fluid, much more fluid when we practice and build the skill of self acceptance.

That’s so powerful. I could not agree more this that’s kind of the place that I’m at, in my journey as well and that I am helping My clients through and it is so, so, so powerful.

I’d say if you know, someone who’s experiencing depression is struggling with suicide or suicide ideation. And you’re looking for resources, I, you know, at from the perspective of the survivor, there’s plenty of resources out there, in my opinion, for things that you can research on Google about what to do and what to say. But if you have someone in your life who’s experiencing depression, it doesn’t feel like they are resonating with any of the information that’s out there. You know, feel free to shoot them my way. You know, I love connecting with people on a on a one to one basis, I feel like, like I said, you know, to earlier, I do feel that it’s my duty in life to talk about this and my experience as much as possible to normalize the experience for people who are going through it. And so the best way to do that, for people to get an introduction to me and who I am and what I’m like, every, you know, random iteration of who I am, it would be on Instagram, and my handle on Instagram is at the road uncovered. If you’ve got someone in your life, who’s, you know, just who needs some support, and they’re not really resonating with anything else that’s out there? Or even if they are, you know, it’s, I think it’s worth it to if you know, that there’s someone who experienced clinical depression, attempted suicide three times, was in the hospital twice, like and to know that I exist is a really big deal, because now I do not have depression, I will never have it again. And if that’s if, and I do believe that the best way to support them is to show them that that’s possible. At least that’s my personal mission. So feel, feel free to send them my way. And the best way to see me in action, or to get to really know me is on Instagram, and my handle on Instagram is @theroaduncovered.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Christina, this has been such an amazing conversation. I could have gone on so many detours in our conversation. You know, I kept thinking to myself, Oh, yeah, that’s another podcast. So that’s another. That’s another? And do you still have a podcast? out there?

I do. It’s out there. It’s not I haven’t updated in a while, but I do have plans to resurrect it. But it’s called how to be good enough. And I’m on Spotify.

Okay. All right. Cool. So, yeah, I look forward to seeing that resurrected. But in the meantime, people can check out episodes that are out there. So yeah, thank you so much. This has been amazing. I really appreciate you taking the time and all of your wisdom and insight that you were able to share from your journey. And I think that is so beneficial for doesn’t matter. I don’t think with what journey people are on at this current time. If they’re listening, I think there are so many things in this conversation that apply to pretty much every human so I really, really appreciate all you had to all the value that you brought to this conversation. And I’ve just appreciate you so much and, and the journey that you’ve been on and, and the tenacity with which you have embarked and just kept going. I think that’s such a message for everybody to is just keep going. Yes, I appreciate it  Jill, thank you so much for the opportunity to to speak with you about this topic too. And I appreciate you very, very much.

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