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Welcome back — I’m so thrilled about this week’s episode. I always love introducing you to some of the amazing coaches I’m working alongside in the life coaching community and bringing a completely different perspective to the challenges we deal with as women, as entrepreneurs, as people wanting to have a big impact on the world and on our family’s future.

This week I’m sharing a delightful conversation I had with Dr. Lee Koles. She is such an expert in her role as a coach helping women return to work after a career break.

Here’s more about Lee:

Dr. Lee Koles is an industrial/organizational psychologist, career strategist, certified life coach and certified CliftonStrengths coach. Lee is the founder of CareerSequel, where she works one-on-one with people, helping them bridge their career gap to land flexible, meaningful work they love. Lee also hosts the weekly “CareerSequel: The Return to Work Podcast” where she shares job search tips and strategies – everything from deciding what you want to do, networking (without hating it), resume and LinkedIn strategy, building confidence and acing interviews. Lee is a firm believer that everyone deserves to find a job that fits their life.

You can’t negotiate your value until you can see it, so if you’re not making the money you want or you’re not doing the work you want to do or have the career you want, one problem could be that you simply got disconnected from your value.

Three things I want you to pay attention to as you’re listening to today’s episode:

1. What value do you place on knowing what you want?
2. How can you invest to make getting what you want easier and faster?
3. You can’t get what you want with what you want to invest until you believe you’re worth it.
   • How can you tell whether you believe this?
     • By looking at your behavior — what you’re doing and how you’re doing it
     • By looking at what you have to show for it or your progress toward the result you want.
       • Is it steady overall, like the growth of the stock market — dips are okay, but over the long term, it shows an increase?
       • Or is it up and down with an overall downward trend?
     • By looking at how you feel most of the time when you’re working toward it.
       • Are you moving toward it like you look forward to your favorite thing in the world?
         • I look forward to going to dinner with my husband every week.
         • I look forward to our tradition of our Saturday night steak dinners at home with a little TV
       • Or are you dreading it? Does it feel like drudgery?
   • Just become aware of the indicators — your body and your actions are way better indicators than just asking yourself if you believe you’re worth it or if you deserve it.
     • Or you can ask yourself questions and notice how your body reacts.
       • What makes you worth it?
       • What makes you think you’ll be able to do this?
       • How long are you willing to keep doing this if you don’t see the evidence that it’s working?
     • Your brain is asking these questions anyway. You might as well answer them honestly.

These things are important whether you’re returning to work after a career break, whether you’re facing new challenges as a parent or whether you’re building your coaching business.

With that let’s dive into this conversation with Dr. Lee Koles! Enjoy!

Hi, Lee, how are you? I am so glad to have you here. Thank you, Jill. I’m excited to be here. I always love being in the presence of Jill The Money Coach. You’re so sweet. And so what do you do when you’re not working? Helping people get back to work after a career break? What do you enjoy doing in your day to day, what’s important to you? I think one thing that’s important to me is developing people. I’d say, I’m certified in the Clifton Strengths. I don’t know if you’ve if you’ve done that or not, but just my top strength is developer. And so I get energy just from talking to people and seeing the potential in other people. And so I find that just in every part of my life, I’m just looking to see how I can improve others. 

That’s awesome. Yeah, I think developer for me, I want to say is like number seven, I’m pretty sure it’s in the top 10. I’m pretty sure it is, too, because you’re a coach. So yeah. And my number one is ideation. Actually, Oh, yeah. ideas flow out of me, like, crazy. I love I love that. Yeah, that’s something and that’s something that is very abundant for me. So it’s really easy for me to sort of leverage that area of abundance and say, Oh, my gosh, what if? Would it be cool? If, you know, whatever I feel is lacking was as plentiful as the ideas I have, I wonder what that would feel like. So I kind of try to drop into that. 

So what do your clients feel is lacking for them? My clients, I work with people who have been on a career break, and they want to get back into the workforce. And so, so many of my clients have taken a break to attend to another part of their life, maybe they have been looking after children or a relative, or it just didn’t work in their life to have a job at the same time as their spouse, or or partner. And now they’re looking to go back, and they lack confidence. And they’re not sure what they want to do, what career path to take, and also how to do it. And so they do have these, these feelings that are holding themselves back from actually landing a job that they’re going to love. 

Yeah, sounds a little bit like the coaches that I work with that are trying to build their business. And a lot of times what happens is, while they’re building their business, they have their confidence erodes, you know, with that we have all of this confidence in this excitement when we get certified as a coach, and then we go to build a business. And that just plummets for some reason. Do you find that with your clients? I do, just because they are not used to thinking of themselves as someone who is earning a paycheck and in the workplace, just like maybe your clients there, maybe the idea of being an entrepreneur is really new for them. And so they may be confident in other areas of their life. But as they’re stepping into this new role of being an entrepreneur, they’re not. They’re not as comfortable in that role, they’re having a hard time believing in themselves in that role. And that’s the same for my clients, too. They may believe in themselves as a parent or as a, you know, as a spouse or as a caretaker, but maybe not as an employee.

Yeah, I was reading this book one time, and I can’t recall which book it was off the top of my head, but they talked about, oh, Steve Chandler, he has a bunch of books and I’ve read a bunch of them. But they talked. He talked in there about he was doing the speaking engagement, and somebody came up to him afterwards. And they were asking him some kind of question like she was experiencing imposter syndrome basically. And she was like, How are you so confident about everything you talk about? You can’t possibly be an expert in everything. And I love his response to her. He said, I don’t have to be an expert at everything to be confident. Because all I really have to be is an expert at my own experience. And isn’t that doesn’t that just like taking the pressure off of us when we’re trying to show up as an expert, because we are always an expert of our own experience. And that really is, the key to our value is the expert expertise we have, that we’ve developed in just navigating our own life, which is pretty significant. I think that is huge. Because I know that so many people think that there’s a prescribed way that you should go about your career, for example, or in your case, your goal about being an entrepreneur. And so, so many people feel like the proper way to have a successful career is to not take a break is to just graduate from college or you know, get schooling, get training, you get in the workforce, and you stay in and you grow and grow and grow. And so the people I work with, they have not done what they’ve done or you know, they think of it maybe as deviating from a path, this prescribed path that they have in their head is the right way to do things. And really, there is not one right way to be to have a sex successful career, you can step out of the workplace and take a break and then go back in you can pivot and go into a completely different field. And it’s really understanding and owning that that I think can set people free and really allow them to have confidence and know that the path that they take is going to be the right one for themselves. Just like with your entrepreneurs, there’s not just one way to be an entrepreneur and have it work for everybody, each person is going to have their unique path that’s going to work for them. 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it’s I mean, it’s like, it’s like cooking or baking. My husband always picks on me when I cook, although he doesn’t cook. So I mean, these, he can follow the directions on the back of the frozen lasagna. He does not like to deviate from them. And I’m one of those cooks that like, oh, a pinch of this pinch of that, you know, unless there’s some of this. And I know that sounds good. And so people ask me, you know, I’ll take something to a potluck. And then somebody will say, Oh, that was so good. I would love for you to give me the recipe. And I’m like, Well, I can tell you what’s in it. But I can’t tell you how much. And so our businesses, careers, being a parent, even there are so many things in our lives, in our careers that require that ability to just try and see what works and what works for us, doesn’t matter what works for somebody else. What matters is that we find what works for us. And so, as I was hearing, I was listening to you talk about your clients. And I mean, the things that came to me was what I heard you saying kind of when I read between the lines, is there an expert at setting boundaries, they’re an expert at setting priorities, because to take a career break, you have to decide on boundaries, you have to decide what your priorities are, you have to really intentionally look at what you truly value and then follow through through on those. And it sounds like the expert at adapting to their circumstances, all of which are extremely useful to any organization. Right. 

I love that. Jill, I think my clients would be so happy to hear you phrase it that way. Because I think sometimes they don’t give themselves credit for that decision that they made to step out of the workforce. And maybe it’s a decision that they have second guessed or have beaten themselves up for you to point out that they made a conscious decision to put a boundary up and attend to a different part of their life. I think they would appreciate that. And another thing that you talked about was just finding out what works and what doesn’t work. And I think so often, when you’re having a when you’re looking for your career or a job, you beat yourself up about the jobs that didn’t work for you. And I see every job job that you hate, I think, I think teaches you a lesson. Like I think it’s great to have a job that you hate, because you’re able to then see what you don’t like. And then you’ll have the next job, you’re not you’re going to be different. So I just think, I think every job opportunity, every path that you’ve tried, if it has not worked for you, I call that good news because I think it just narrows down your options and narrows down what will work for you. It’s helping, it’s helping you tailor your path. 

Yeah, yeah. And I talk a lot to my clients and wherever I speak. And even on this podcast, I talk a lot about knowing what you want, giving yourself permission to want what you want. And remembering that you truly do matter. And, the thing is, any job that you have any thing that maybe doesn’t work very well in your business, sometimes it’s a lot easier to identify what we don’t want. And figuring out what we don’t want leads us to figure out what we do want. And so I think it’s important to just like you said, credit those mistakes, or those learning opportunities with what we are getting from that and realize that sometimes the only way that we find what works for us is to find what doesn’t work for us. And that sometimes is painful. But also sometimes it is necessary in order to get that. I mean, just looking at this last year, in my business, I learned a ton, I grew a ton, it was all very painful growth. But when I look back on it, in hindsight, I realized that there was no other way I could imagine getting all of the growth and all of the learning that I got. Doing it an easy way, like a less painful way is like all of it required the pain. So you have to be willing to go through some of that discomfort, some of that pain in order to get the purpose in order to get the powerful growth to move you forward. And, and just like multiply what you’re able to do, right?

Discomfort is the currency for growth. I totally agree those moments that were painful those stick with you. And I find that with my clients to just going back and talk to them talking to them about their previous job experiences. And like you said, asking them, okay, what do you not want in a job? Like those things pop up to the surface much more quickly than what’s your dream job. And so you can actually take the negatives and look at those and then spin them and realize what you do want as well. Yeah, yeah. Like what is one of the biggest struggles that your clients have? Well, let’s say one of the biggest struggles that my clients have is their confidence. And I think it’s this feeling that they haven’t accomplished anything, because they’ve taken a career break. And what I so often find is when I go back and talk to them about all that they did during their career break, and they’ll come to me and say, I’ve done nothing, I’ve done nothing at all. And then when I sit down with them, I realized they have done so much, and they’ve accomplished so much. But they weren’t paid for that work. And for some reason, because that work they did did not come with a paycheck. They feel like it didn’t count. And so what one big thing that I have to teach them about is, is that this does count, it totally counts. And there’s something called that I teach them about called transferable skills, which is that the skills that you use during doing one task can be applied to another task can be applied to a job, where you can earn money for doing those skills. So the skills that you develop even without a paycheck are just are valuable, and you can talk about them in a job interview and you can apply for a job that you know because of the skills that you gained doing work that you weren’t paid for. So that requires a big mind shift for people. 

Yeah, I find the same thing with coaches that are trying to build their business, especially in those early stages. Because when typically, you know, we all want to focus on the people who aren’t overnight successes. But that’s, that’s the exception rather than the rule. And so when you look at the average entrepreneur, when you look at the average person building a coaching business, you’re going to find that in those early stages, we all feel like we’re not worth anything. Because we’re not producing any, you know, our bank accounts not going up. And, and so, that’s very similar, they’re doing lots of things, but they’re not yet getting paid for it. And even if those things are, you know, shifting your niche, or even if those things are, you know, redoing your website, or even if those things are, you know, yeah, I’m on my fifth freebie, all of those things are preparing you for the future, that is going to be valuable, right. And so you are producing value, even if the bank accounts not going up, even and you are valuable, whether you do something or not. I mean, that’s that’s like, baseline, your valuable if you’re sitting on the couch watching TV. So you have value, whether or not you do do anything. And I think that’s something that a lot of coaches have also struggled with. And I can imagine people who’ve taken career breaks do as well, is sort of that sense of value being tied to what we contribute, or what we do, or role that we fulfill. And, you know, we have to establish at a very core level that we are valuable regardless, before we even start our day, we’re valuable. And then everything we do is a over and above that is extremely valuable, maybe not in the way that we typically think about value, but in the way that it contributes because sometimes we contribute when we’re not even looking to contribute, just by being there just by listening to somebody just by showing up for somebody despite, you know, doing whatever we do being whoever we are, are valuable. Right? 

Yeah, you talk about uncovering the money lies. And I think the big one is, is how much do I have how much money in my bringing in, and that helps me determine my worth, or how much money have I made in the past. And so, and the or for what I’ve been doing, or what I’ve been spending my hours on my, you know, people who’ve had a career break, and they’ve been doing all sorts of volunteer work. When they look to apply for a job, they automatically think that they don’t deserve that much because they hadn’t. They haven’t been earning a paycheck for the last few years. Despite the amazing work that they may have been doing. You know, they feel like, oh, they should just take whatever job falls into their lap. Or I should be lucky if anyone just offers me a job throws me a bone. And that is that’s a money lie. Yeah, yeah, that’s a big one. So how do you help help your clients overcome those lies? Because I mean, I always love how, closely the things that no matter what area of our life, we’re looking at how that always comes back to money and how that always ties into, you know, sort of the entrepreneurial journey. Because I mean, for one, how we think about one thing is how we think about most things. And the other thing is what we focus on grows and so if you’re focusing on what you don’t have in, you know, to offer, when you’re going back to a career, it’s really no different than when you’re focusing one on what you don’t have to offer to a potential client if you’re trying to build a business, right? That that lack when you focus on the lot more than you focus on what you actually have to bring to the table. It only creates more lack. 

Yeah, I that’s so true. So The way I begin all my coaching sessions is with a Strengths Assessment so that my clients can really understand the their unique strengths. So I’m I’m certified in CliftonStrengths. And we do this assessment. And it’s so amazing because it just brings to the forefront the unique strengths that they have to offer. And so and then I coached them on that we spend, we spend some time just really digging into the strengths. They talk to friends and family members about their strengths. And they really learn how to own them so that they, they know that when they go into when they’re looking for a job, or they’re going into a job interview, they know what makes what sets them apart from other people. So once they learn their strengths, they’re really able to just have this language in terms of how to define themselves in a new way that they haven’t considered before. And then we also we, we define their values, we do a core values exercise, so that they are able to really describe their core values and also articulate the skills that they’re good at. And we, but often, they also they want concrete evidence of their worth as well. And so that is when we really dig into what they did during their career break and before their career break. And I give them evidence, just things that they hadn’t considered, like I said, that volunteer work, most people just don’t think that counts. And so it’s this whole reframing this reframing of who they are, what they have to offer, and what they can bring to a prospective employer. And also how lucky an employer with is going to be that gets them. Yeah. Yeah.

 So you focus on what? Yeah, exactly what we’re talking about. You focus on what they have, not what they don’t have. And I think sometimes we get so caught up in Oh, but I don’t have the skill set, or I don’t have that skill set, and they’re looking for that. But we don’t look at what we do have that they’re not looking for, that we can show, you know what, what an employer is not looking for that we can actually show them that they need. You know, I think it’s, I think in an interview, and even in, you know, when, as coaches when we’re dealing with potential clients, sometimes they come looking for one thing, and we show them, oh, hey, did you see that you really need this? And it’s the same thing for your clients. So they show up for an interview and say, Yeah, but what are you guys doing about this particular thing? Because this is something I can really help you with? And how impressed is an employer going to be when they think, Oh, my gosh, you’re right, that would, you know, I didn’t see that gap. And you’re the perfect person to fill that gap, even if they don’t have a position for that. I remember when my husband and I moved to Florida, back years ago, and he was applying for jobs. And there was somebody that he interviewed with, they didn’t have a position for him. But they loved him so much that they were like, we better grab him up before somebody else gets them before somebody else snatches them up, because, you know, as soon as we do have a position, then we want to have him as the perfect candidate. And so they had him doing other stuff for probably about five months before a position opened up for a controller in one of their dealerships. And he was right there to fill that role instantaneously. So, I mean, that’s how valuable it is to focus on, like you said, your strengths and what you bring to the table. And isn’t that really a great position to be in to for negotiation? 

Absolutely. I teach people how to prepare for interviews and strategize for interviews and like you said in terms of you know, the example with your friend is an organization or people in the organization they just want they want to know that you know, them everyone wants to be known and the organization as a body wants to be known, so if you go in and you know, this the challenges of the organization, the organization’s pain points, or you know what, what they really need from you. You can absolutely structure do you align your skills and strengths to help them meet their needs. And so we talk about that just how to how to make sure that you address exactly what the job positions calling for, and how you can be an asset to that company. 

Okay, so how do you help them with that piece of it? Well, in terms of preparing for an interview, we really we start with looking at the job description. And first of all, in terms of deciding where they want to work and what kind of work they want to do, they need to make sure that the, the organization’s aligned with their values, too. So if there is a job or an organization that is just in conflict with one of their core values, it’s not going to work out for anybody, they will be unhappy in the job. So but once they find a position, we look at the position and we break it, we break it down and terms of the skills and the knowledge that is needed to perform that position. And then we we match up their you know, the job applicants skills and strengths, and tie them to the the requirements of the job description. And we talk about their experiences and stories that they have that reflect their ability to do those things. Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s amazing. That’s not something that I ever felt like I was, like, super good at, I didn’t feel like I was super bad at interviewing, but I didn’t feel like I was super good at it.

I had a client the other day. She was so funny. She was talking about somebody had come to her and she wasn’t looking for a job. But somebody had come to her and said, Hey, we want you to come work for us. And, or they had actually said, you know, I want you to come in, meet the team. They didn’t even tell her that she was going to be doing an interview, she gets there. And there. And she goes in the room and she realizes that it’s an interview. Oh, my gosh. And and she had not dressed for it. She had not prepared for an interview, because that’s not what they told her that they that she was doing. But the first thing that came to her mind is yeah, no problem. They wanted to snatch her up. They like trapped her in there. So they could interview her. I’m great interview. And, yeah. And so she just showed up with this confidence that yeah, interviews have never been a problem for me. And so she went in there and she held it. They loved her. And they offered her a job. That amazing. 

I think that just shows us how very important mindset is. So you can always tap into something you feel like, oh my gosh, that’s not a problem. I’m always good at that. I you know, that’s never been a problem for me, I can nail it. So just I think, and I use this technique with my clients a lot where we leverage something that they do have that just like instinctual, almost level of confidence. Whether it’s, you know, yeah, me, whether it’s being a mom, or, you know, or whether, like me whether it’s generating ideas, I would never say oh, yeah, I’m not good at ideas, right? Uh huh. Yeah, it just comes naturally. So leveraging that, like, how can I become good at something using those same? Those same? That same mindset that I come to something that comes natural? Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that’s why the self is doing a self assessment before you head out on a job search is such an important thing. Because you’ll be able to just understand at a deep level, what your strengths are, what your values are, the skills that you love to use, and that you’re good at using. And then it’s also important to know the skills that you are really good at, that you can’t stand using. And I feel like there’s this, there’s this trap that I think really smart people fall into, and that they are good at so many things. And so they take a job, and that’s doing something they don’t like, but they’re really good at it. So they keep getting rewarded. They keep getting promoted, and they get stuck. So with my clients, we really we flesh out the different skills and we put them in categories so that they know they’re called burnout skills that they know their burnout skills and things that they’re really good at, but that they don’t enjoy doing And so it can be tempting to keep applying for those jobs or taking jobs, with the burnout skills, because you’re good at those things. But we know just for the longevity of your career and for having a positive future with your career, you need to do the motivated skills, which are things that you are good at that you enjoy doing. Yeah, Yeah, I’m good at accounting, but I really don’t enjoy it. No, my husband is good at accounting, and he enjoys it. So it’s a good match for him.

Yeah, I think a lot of coaches do the same thing, when they try to choose a niche they try. I think the tendency is, well, I’ll just do a niche that I’m good at. And then they try to do that. And they, they’re like, but it’s not really what they want to be talking about all day. And then they find themselves in this place where it’s like, oh, yeah, I’m really good at it. And people, you know, will buy that. But if I don’t want to do it, it’s just make it really hard to show up in, in a good way every single day. 

Yeah, well, I love what you’ve done in terms of you, you know, you’re talented accounting, but you don’t necessarily like accounting. But you’ve taken it and you spun it in terms of the your ability to work with numbers work with money, but in a totally different way that’s more suited to what you really love, which is helping to develop people. And helping people understand the concepts of accounting and money and building their own businesses. It really has been working work in progress, as all businesses are right, as all careers are. What is your favorite thing to think about money or about building your business, in terms of building my business, I know that I think business needs to be fed in order to grow. And so I guess a money lie. And a money issue that I deal with it as I build my business is investing in my business. And just knowing that that investment is going to result in growth, because there’s a temptation when you’re when you’re an entrepreneur’s you don’t you want the money coming in, but you’re reluctant to actually spend it on yourself. And so I think you have to have this mind shift that like, open yourself up to knowing that sometimes, if you spend money on yourself on whether it’s on your business, or trying to, you know, or hiring a coach, that that will actually serve to generate more money for you. So you have to invest in yourself to get the money back. But that initial decision that you make to spend the money on a coach or to invest in your business in that way, can be uncomfortable, it can be uncomfortable, but once you do it, you have an accountability partner, you owe it to, you know, it’s an extra incentive to really dig in and grow, whether it’s growing personally or professionally, or growing your business. 

Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, because we all want the growth, or the money. But we don’t want to invest in what that will take to, to experience that growth. And to get that growth, especially from somebody who knows what they’re doing, and knows the shifts that have to happen knows the tactics that have to happen in order to get there. I mean, for your clients, it would probably be, you know, the investment in learning how to negotiate learning how to interview well, learning how to find the right job fit, things like that. And then for my clients, of course, it would be, you know, figuring out how to make good financial decisions in your business, learning how to budget in your business, so that you can plan how to be profitable, and get that return on your investment that you’re looking for. And so it’s just like, when you’re investing in the stock market, you’re not going to you’re going to, you know, do your due diligence, and you’re going to invest wisely, and you’re going to you know, investing in the stock is not spending money. It’s investing in assets that will give you a return on your money that will appreciate over time. And, and you’re so you’re investing in your future. So right, right.

So someone who and who hires you as a coach gels it they’re basically skipping the line. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re paying to accelerate the growth of their business. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that’s really, what hiring a coach who is an expert in the thing you’re hiring them for? Yes, it’s accelerating the growth that you could do by trial and error, but they already have experienced or have noticed the patterns, and they can break those down for you to make it quicker and easier to get there, which is exactly what I do. I make money easier. Whether it’s making it whether it’s managing it, spending it, investing it, just learning more about it and, and creating that strong, secure relationship with it. I make all of that easier. 

Oh, it has been such a pleasure. Such a delight. i You’re just so delightful. i That’s how I would describe you. I love getting together with you. And I love you know, the conversations that we’ve had. So I’m so so glad that we got an opportunity to record one of those conversations for everybody else to to listen to and to learn from. 

Thank you, Jill. It’s been such an honor to be on your podcast. 

I love chatting with Lee — she is so smart and she loves people. Her perspective and her expertise is so, so valuable.

I wanted to highlight a few things from our conversation so that you can explore some of these things a little further and get a little more traction, whether in your career search or in building and scaling your business, so you can make it easier for you.

• Where is it in your life do you feel confident? What role in your life do you feel comfortable? What areas are you self-assured?
• What do you believe about the areas you do very well?
• How does that compare about how you feel about the areas where you’re not comfortable, like marketing or content creation?
• It’s important to understand your core values and your strengths as well as you value and worth, as an employee AND as an entrepreneur. What makes an employer or a client so lucky to get you is based more on WHO YOU ARE than on how much money you’ve made.
• Lee talked about her clients looking for positions and organizations that are in alignment with their core values. This is just as important with entrepreneurs building a business. Don’t waste time building a business that isn’t aligned with your core values or with the life you ultimately want to build for yourself. The best time to design the business you want is when you’re first building your business. Don’t build a business that you’re not going to love just to make money. Build the business you want to begin with.
• There is no one right way to create the business YOU want, because
  • A pinch of this, a pinch of that. I not only do that in cooking, but in my business.
  • I can’t give you my recipe, but I CAN help you create your own.
  • I can help you find what works for you.
  • Lee can help you find what works for you if you’re coming off a career break returning to the workforce.

Here’s how you can get in touch with Dr. Lee Koles. Check out her podcast Career Sequel, follow her on Instagram @CareerdotSequel and learn how to work with her at her website www.careersequel dot com. She has a free guide to help you re-enter the workplace after a career break.

Let me know your biggest takeaway from this episode! I’ll see you next week!